The Derby & Irish Derby 2009

If F & G had attacked earlier would he not surely just have given STS a nice lead ?

I can't see that a faster pace would not have suited STS - he stayed , he idled - he was just much too good for AOB's lot

End of .

Agreed UG - won't happen but one can dream .
 
French and Irish Classics and Group 1's are often critised for their slow pace and this is no different for me.

I hope Sea The Stars goes to The Curragh and there is a proper gallop. He'll probably still win but we have seen the Ballydoyle Epsom horses like of Dylan Thomas, Soldier Of Fortune, Peeping Fawn etc be different animals at The Curragh and it would not surprise me to see a much better showing from the likes of Fame And Glory and Masterofthehorse for a proper test. Sea The Stars could well still win and probably will but still question marks for me before I proclaim him to be the next Nijinsky. It was a ten furlong race today.
 
Ardross said:
No - it was a 12f race just not run as quickly as you wished Gal.
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A slowly run 12 furlong race Ardross....you complained about slowly run 3 mile chases in Ireland for long enough, surely flat thoroughbred races can only be taken seriously when run at a fair (not necessarily quick) honest test.
 
Galileo said:
A slowly run 12 furlong race Ardross....you complained about slowly run 3 mile chases in Ireland for long enough, surely flat thoroughbred races can only be taken seriously when run at a fair (not necessarily quick) honest test.
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Oh come off it Gal , it wasn't that slow . It was relatively steady but not a crawl .

Sea The Stars was just much too good for them . I feel that a better pace would have suited him just as well if not better than AOB's battalions . They were all off the bridle way before STS - who put the race to bed and then as in the Guineas dossed in front.
 
Just home from Epsom, top class performance from the winner.

I was sure Sea the Stars wouldn't stay, not the first time I've been wrong and it is unlikely to be the last.

The first five all ran well and I think that they could all aquit themselves well against the older horses. I was very disapppointed with Black Bear Island, he never got into the race at all. I think that he is better than this performance but maybe not as good as I thought after the Dante.

Sea the Stars is a very impressive horse visually. I thought that physically only Fame and Glory and Golden Sword bore any comparision. Crowded House also looked well in the parade ring but seemed lighter than those three.

After 35+ years of watching the Derby on television, that was my first time at Epsom. Television dosn't even come close to displaying just how severe the camber in the track is.

It is also a difficult track viewing wise. Before the advent of the big screen the first seven furlongs of the Derby must have been a mystery to patrons in the stands.

I really enjoyed the day. When flights, trains and admission are counted, it wasn't a cheap day, but I can always say that I was at Epsom when Irish trained horses filled the first five places in the Derby, even though I didn't back the winner.
 
Sea The Stars was a clear cut winner, no doubt.

ps,

What a shambles I am at the best of times! Few beers and it all goes to the head! I've had a good laugh at myself there! A vital lesson learnt.:ninja:
 
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"Son of Arc winner wins Derby but still may not really truly genuinely absolutely stay SHOCKER!"

:D

Any pre-race nerves about Sea The Stars vanished when I saw him. I'm no expert but Jesus he's gorgeous, and he seems virtually bombproof temperament wise. It's not that he was completely switched off, he was alert and taking things in, just calm and steady. Professional. Class.

Unfortunately, the paddock experience was rather messed up by the O'Brien horses being ridiculously late. He got fined for it, but I really don't know what the hell was going on there. I've been to Guineas and Oaks where he's had multiple entries and nothing like that happened. It was almost comical watching Pat Keating trying to get all the rugs off in time for the jockeys.

Anyway, the race. Before they got to the top of the hill I knew he was going to win. They obviously weren't going particularly fast, Kinane had him in the perfect spot, and everything had been set up perfectly. Just get down the hill easy, one smack to get him up to Golden Sword, one smack to get him past, one smack to make sure. Seemed so easy.

Thought Golden Sword ran an absolute cracker. Ridden to win, not to purposely help or hinder anything else. I thought that's what people wanted to see? Masterofthehorse finished tremendously too.

Way too late for any more, but bloody hell what a day.

In summary:

:adore: Oxx
:adore: Kinane
:adore: Urban Sea
:adore: Sea The Stars
 
With Gareth's interpretation on this. Bit of a hack canter to kick off with, gentle wind-up and thank Godawmighty, no barging, no striking into, no cutting-off and tactical boxing-in. A commanding performance, made to look facile, by a superb animal. None of us knows if he'll prove a dud at stud, so all that gawping about his future 'price' (based purely speculatively on an unknown stud fee and number of covers) is immaterial until and unless he begets top winners in due course. But as an example of what a Thoroughbred can be at its best, I'd say he was in the very first rank. And that he joins the elite of the elite in winning the 2000 Guineas and the Derby says it all.

But, er... what happened to GAN AMHRAS? I can understand MONTAFF living up to his long odds, bless him, but GA ran like a hippo. Anyone know why?
 
Wow - as in REALLY hated the track!! Thanks for that, Gareth. Pleased to know it wasn't anything like bleeding or getting struck into early on.
 
I know it might be a very difficult task, but I can see Sheik Mo buying the horse and aiming him at the St Leger. He would love the challenge. There will be time to run in the BCup later on if he doesn´t win the race and he could remain in training next year for the 10-12f G1´s.
 
It was clear after a hundred yards that the ballydoyle plan was to give Rip Van Winkle the best chance, with the back up plan being that Fame And Glory had been winning over a mile and a quarter and so might get away with it. The plan was shite. Pop! Bang! Whoosh! Fizzle! Splat! Phffthszz!

Gan Amhras is just not a nice horse.

At the press conference afterwards Oxx seemed to be considering everything and totally ruling out nothing, in the same way that he said he might not run in the Derby and he might not do this or that, so I shouldnt read too much into any of it at this stage, but I dont see them being scared of anything they beat at Epsom.
 
Sea The Stars is a very good horse, but at this stage far from a great one. He stays 10 furlongs but anything beyond that remains in the realms of speculation. Who knows what was left in the tank at the end - it is very easy to assume a horse who 'switches off' when hitting the front has plenty left but that is not always the case. As regards his merit, similarly to Nashwan, he may have been lucky to find himself in an average year. I would certainly fancy Presvis who nobody has suggested is a 'great' to have his measure over 10 furlongs although a clash would seem unlikely as connections of the gelding continue to 'chase the dollar'.

As big a story as Sea The Stars, if not bigger, was the tactical stupidity of Ballydoyle. Given that they couldn't make such a mess again Fame And Glory would have prospects of overturning the result in an Irish Derby but I suspect Oxx will realise that the cards landed in his favour yesterday and will want to drop back in trip. Hopefully, Golden Sword, who was ridden for the benefit of Rip Van Winkle will be campaigned as a Group 1 Leger/Cup horse in his own right.
 
As regards his merit, similarly to Nashwan, he may have been lucky to find himself in an average year.

thats so wrong on all counts :p

for a start if we want to compare the field that Nashwan beat and yesterdays...its a no brainer..Nashwans was a way poorer field

i think its was clear before the race that most agreed it was probably the strongest Derby for many a year

and I don't think anyone here now would even now say that there aren't some top horses behind yesterday


i'm not running Nashwan down here..I just can't see how STS is "lucky"...when in fact..he could be accused of being "unlucky" if we are talking about strong races..if he had run in Nashwans Derby he would have won even easier than Nashwan did..imo.
 
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My guess is STS will run in the Irish Derby, Irish Champion and Breeders Cup.

Why bother with the Curragh? Because the trip takes a bit more getting than at Epsom and it would silence those who doubt his stamina, because it would mark him out as an above average winner of the Derby, because it is confined to his own age group and therefore is less likely to bottom him than the King George, and because, as Gal mentions, Mr Oxx will be "expected" to run him in it.

I'd be surprised if he goes for the Eclipse, sending him there would be an open admission that he doesn't really get 12f when he could be going to the Curragh. I think his first all aged 10f race will be the Irish Champion Stakes, which is more prestigious than the Eclipse these days and would also fit in better with a tilt at the Breeders Cup than the Juddmonte would.
 
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I wouldn't be surprised to see Masterofthehorse turn Fame and Glory over . F and G was leaning on him in the last 100yds and Hughes almost had to burrow him into third waving his whip in his face as he could not use it .

Gareth's analysis seems spot on to me and K's description facile is perfect . He cruised up to Golden Sword a furlong out - one slap - sweeps by and at the end they are not gaining on him at all !
 
Ardross said:
Gareth's analysis seems spot on to me and K's description facile is perfect . He cruised up to Golden Sword a furlong out - one slap - sweeps by and at the end they are not gaining on him at all !
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And absolutely no one is disputing that...
 
EC1 said:
As regards his merit, similarly to Nashwan, he may have been lucky to find himself in an average year.

thats so wrong on all counts :p

for a start if we want to compare the field that Nashwan beat and yesterdays...its a no brainer..Nashwans was a way poorer field

i think its was clear before the race that most agreed it was probably the strongest Derby for many a year

and I don't think anyone here now would even now say that there aren't some top horses behind yesterday


i'm not running Nashwan down here..I just can't see how STS is "lucky"...when in fact..he could be accused of being "unlucky" if we are talking about strong races..if he had run in Nashwans Derby he would have won even easier than Nashwan did..imo.
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I did use the word 'may' and why is it so obviously wrong? Five horses finished pretty close yesterday - at this stage what evidence is there to suggest this year's three year olds are above average? Until we have further evidence to the contrary it is a plausible argument that Sea The Stars may be a little bit better than an average crop - at least at 10f. Sea The Stars was extremely lucky that the Ballydoyle team completely failed to expose any possible stamina limitations.

As regards most people agreeing it was a strong field I think that just forms part of an increasing trend to over-hype racing. Sometimes it seems as if the media think they have some sort of duty to 'sell' the product even if the pitch is based more on speculation than fact. Hence the elevation of Sea The Stars to superstar status.
 
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Sea The Stars is clearly the luckiest horse in history and should be retired before being found out :lol:
 
Occasionally we get 'unsatisfactory' Derbies. Sometimes it's because the best horse in the race is, relatively speaking, a donkey (eg Oath). Sometimes it's because the jockey ballsed it up (Dancing Brave).

This time it's because it was a non-race. The Ballydoyle masterplan has blown up in their face and, much as I like the operation and the way O'Brien and Murtagh talk about their horses, I reckon they got a bit of a comeuppance yesterday.

I'm not convinced STS stays a true-run 12f but the worst-case scenario is that he got away with it yesterday. Hopefully future events will prove that he is the best horse anyway and that he does stay.
 
I think they wanted to give all their horses a chance including the nonstayer and in so doing decided that the best thing to do in order to achieve that was to hope that Sea The Stars totally failed to stay or, in other words, ignore Sea The Stars and hope for the best. Unfortunately for them Sea The Stars was the best horse.
 
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