The Derby & Irish Derby 2009

I am pretty sure Nijinsky would not have taken in the Leger if they knew he would subsequently have ended his career with two defeats. Those two defeats probably took more off his status than winning the St Leger added
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he took the leger rather than the arc becuase englehard the owner had been diagnosed terminally ill with cancer (he died the following april) he knew he could either die owning a triple crown winner or die owning an arc winner he took the view owning a triple crown winner would be rarer than owning an arc winner and with the emphasis on speed in breeding now and the str leger not adding much in value he probably will be the last triple crown winner unless of course the next guineas/derby winner is so unfashionably bred a st leger win would have no effect on his value

the ground was against him in the st leger but it probably was the lingering effects of the american ringworm he had contracted in august that cost him his 2 defeats apparantly he was completely bald in early august
 
There is a longer piece in the RP paper version and his comment "I'd like to have gotten in front of Mick" is stating the bloody obvious. couldn't we all have said that before the race, let alone after it. Either he was given instructions and rode to them and is complaining a little about the instructions or he made an absolute school boy error. I had no financial interest in the Derby but thought it was one of those fascinating sporting cock ups. At least Richard Hughes came out last night and said he rode to instructions on Master of The Horse who had to be covered up and brought with one late run as O'Brien said if he was lit up he'd only have a short burst. Has put me off backing him for Irish Derby.
 
so much Sea The Stars / breeding/ media / triple crown cross-threading going on now... but anyway ..

If Sea The Stars were mine he would run in The St Leger and I am sure I would be roundly praised and castigated in equal measures. There is a load of what-ifs surrounding the end of Nijinkys racing career. The ringworm, the leger, the lester-dropping-his-whip in the arc... and the fact that he was well over the top and should not have been at Newmarket on Champion Stakes day.

Can anyone remember if there was much of a furore from people saying that he shouldn't run in The Leger before the event ?!

Nashwan of course would have won the Leger but Hamdan Al Maktoum preferred to wait for an Arc challenge. For some reason they felt it necessary to run the great horse in the Niel in order to give him experience of Longchamp. It was a strange decision and it blew up in their faces when he was beaten in that non-race.

I do not know of the gossip-stories surrounding Sir Ivor and Royal Palace in 67 and 68, but I believe they were speedier horses who had not been necessarily expected to stay at Epsom. How soon were these Guineas/Derby winners ruled out of The Leger, and was there a huge discussion about their potential triple crown bids at the time or was it just accepted as being foolhardy?

With so much negativity and nonsense written about stallion values and the leger it could be worth remembering that there are really quite a few Derby winners that are no more than cheap national hunt stallions nowadays....

I shall be laughing my bollocks off when Conduit spanks Sea The Stars if the three year old comes over for the King George! :lol:
 
I just don't see what the Leger adds to his career, forgetting about his commercial value. I'd much prefer to see him take on the older horses in the Eclipse, International, Irish Champion or even the Arc rather than beat some slow boat 3 year olds around doncaster. It's a personal view and I'm all for the Leger but not for STS. And I don't think there is any chance of him getting the trip.
 
Can anyone remember if there was much of a furore from people saying that he shouldn't run in The Leger before the event ?!
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i can recall

there was no furore at all in fact encouragment was used

but of course in those days the english derby was the be and end all of flat racing

no breeders cup no shame in being a 12f horse i could go on

and of course horses having stamina wasnt a dirty word in breeding


things are different now

I do not know of the gossip-stories surrounding Sir Ivor and Royal Palace in 67 and 68
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Royal palace was considered a stayer and i cant recall why he never ran or when the decision was taken not to run in the st leger

Sir Ivor was considered a speed horse who would have trouble with 12f they worried about him (and in truth though to a much lesser extent Nijinsky) staying at epsom i dont think he did really stay his class got him through his efforts inb both the irish derby and arc when he met grp 1 horses who stayed seemed to prove they were right. Connaught 2nd to him in the derby was also better over 10f he wasnt a st leger entry

sir ivor of course met and lost to busted in the eclipse unusually for the times sir ivor was an american bred who preffered good to soft ground he seemed to feel the ground in the eclipse and lost by a very narrow margin
 
I think Tsui will want to take him to Hong Kong so I reckon a mid-Summer break might be involved.

I suspect he'll go...

Eclipse
Irish/English Champion
BC Classic
HK Cup
 
Gamla Stan said:
I think Tsui will want to take him to Hong Kong so I reckon a mid-Summer break might be involved.

I suspect he'll go...

Eclipse
Irish/English Champion
BC Classic
HK Cup
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Ground permitting I would be amazed if he did not run in the Irish Derby.
 
Gamla Stan said:
I think Tsui will want to take him to Hong Kong so I reckon a mid-Summer break might be involved.

I suspect he'll go...

Eclipse
Irish/English Champion
BC Classic
HK Cup
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That's a tough campaign for a horse that has been prepped for two classics already and had two trips over the pond. Up to four more trips, two long haul. Fair dues if he can win all these but either they scrap plans for the Eclipse or they scrap plans for HK Cup.
 
HK Cup isn't till mid-December, a good two months after anything he's likely to run in before that.

If they plan on retiring him at the end of the season, and he's kept his form, I would agree that the owners would probably love to have his swansong in HK.

Edit: make that six weeks, I see the BC is late this year.
 
We're having a fine time making up John Oxx's mind for him!

I don't think STS will be at Sandown if the going at the Curragh is ok. If he wins the Irish Derby he can stick to 10f after that.

But if the Curragh is ruled out they'll have to consider including one of the 12f races, KG, Arc or BC Turf, in the programme.
 
But if the Curragh is ruled out they'll have to consider including one of the 12f races, KG, Arc or BC Turf, in the programme.
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Not so sure they will. Might do what New Approach did.
 
I think they should be aiming at the 10f races. I don't see what beating the same horses again will do for him.

I think i read Oxx saying somewhere he is a good ground horse, and will have a summer campaign because of that. Therefore, you'd expect two from Eclipse/Juddmonte/KG.
 
Hamm said:
I think they should be aiming at the 10f races. I don't see what beating the same horses again will do for him.

I think i read Oxx saying somewhere he is a good ground horse, and will have a summer campaign because of that. Therefore, you'd expect two from Eclipse/Juddmonte/KG.
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If the horse he has emulated is anything to go by, they'll drop him back to 10 furlongs against the older horses in the Eclipse.

I agree that now he's beaten the 3-y-o middle distance brigade he has not much more to gain and a lot to lose by Fame And Glory, for example, reversing form with him in a fast run race on a galloping track (Irish Derby). On the other hand his stud value will be enhanced even more by beating older horses (as did Nashwan).
 
Hopefully.

The worry is that on ground slightly on the soft side of good, Oxx will run him what with it being his 'home' Derby. If that did happen, I don't think he'd win.

Does anyone give Masterofthehorse a chance in the Irish Derby? He came from much further back (iirc) than Fame & Glory, and although the Curragh wouldn't necessarily suit, there is a reasonable chance he could be overpriced.

I imagine Gan Amhras will be underestimated when odds appear as well; his run was reminiscent of Frozen Fire a year ago, and he may have more talent than that one.
 
Hamm said:
I think they should be aiming at the 10f races. I don't see what beating the same horses again will do for him.
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Whats the point in any Epsom winner taking in the Irish Derby again? We have seen the likes of Peeping Fawn, Dylan Thomas, Soldier Of Fortune, Alamshar etc all put up far great efforts to the ones they produced at Epsom and end up being far superior to their Epsom conquerers (with the exception of SOF).

He only beat his Epsom Derby field a couple of lengths at Epsom in a slowly run race. If he comes out and thumps his Irish Derby field by 5 or 6 lengths in a fast run race and hits 130 then I think it will prove plenty.

If taking in the Irish Derby is good enough for the likes of Sinndar, High Chaparral and Galileo then its good enough for Sea The Stars. Also gives him another week (or two) to recover from Epsom.
 
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It's not that there's no point in any Epsom Derby winner taking in the Irish Derby, I'm referring just to Sea the stars. No words in mouth please!

Peeping Fawn, Dylan Thomas, Soldier Of Fortune, Alamshar - none of these won at Epsom, and hence had yet to win a Derby (Oaks) and hence has something to prove at the distance.

He would be much more likely to put in that possible 130 performance at 1m2, and ground is also more likely to suit in the Eclipse.

He'd also prove something against older horses.

He has nothing to win and everything to lose if he goes to the Curragh. If he wins, it's the same horses again, regardless of distance. Loses, and well, it was the pace at Epsom that enabled him to do it.

The three colts you mentioned were much more effective (likely in Sinndar's case) at 1m4 than 1m2 (yes, even HC) than Sea the stars is likely to be. Hence, staying at that distance was the logical choice for them. Just because he won the Derby does not mean 1m4 is his distance.
 
Hamm said:
He would be much more likely to put in that possible 130 performance at 1m2, and ground is also more likely to suit in the Eclipse.

He'd also prove something against older horses.

He has nothing to win and everything to lose if he goes to the Curragh. If he wins, it's the same horses again, regardless of distance. Loses, and well, it was the pace at Epsom that enabled him to do it.
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Agree with all of that. Eclipse makes much more commercial and racing sense than the Irish Derby.
 
I would be surprised if the Irish Derby wasn't his next port of call (ground permitting).

One thing worth pointing out (which Euronymous touched on above) is that many Derby winners step down in trip in an attempt to show that they possess the requisite speed that is apparently necessary for a top commerical stallion these days; as a Guineas winner Sea The Stars this is surely somewhat less of a concern for Sea The Stars.

Anyway, the International at York fits into the schedule quite nicely.
 
Gareth Flynn said:
HK Cup isn't till mid-December, a good two months after anything he's likely to run in before that.
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They are not machines. It takes a tough horse to be right to win a Guineas in May, a Derby in June, an Eclipse or King George in July, and Irish Champion in September, a Breeders Cup in October and a HK Cup in December.

That's the guts of a year in training. Fair dues if he can do it but let's not understate the training achievement that would be, let alone the horse's achievement to win it. Would any of the trainers/work riders like to comment?
 
It would take a Falbrav!

As good a season as a horse can have, imo. Pity that plonker spoiled it!
 
Cantoris said:
They are not machines. It takes a tough horse to be right to win a Guineas in May, a Derby in June, an Eclipse or King George in July, and Irish Champion in September, a Breeders Cup in October and a HK Cup in December.

That's the guts of a year in training. Fair dues if he can do it but let's not understate the training achievement that would be, let alone the horse's achievement to win it. Would any of the trainers/work riders like to comment?
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If you planned it out, one race / month for six or seven months is not insurmountable for a sound horse, particularly a flat racer. Winning them all is a different matter, especially when they are all Group1 and the tiniest little niggle along the way can be enough to wreck plans.
 
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