The Epsom Derby

Go back ten years and the Guineas was THE race for a stallion to win.
Night Of Thunder, Kingman, Australia 1/2/3 made it a Stallion Making race.
Wet springs have caused havoc with Ballydoyle's last 2 seasons and Derby is their number 1 target.
They still show up for it though, so it is not just an afterthought.
Dry spring will see more forward horses from Ballydoyle at Newmarket.
Not being afraid of being beaten is the game changer here.
 
Aidan did mention somewhere they were looking more at the second half of the season this year. Maybe he's overdone the horses only just ready to run bit but Luxembourg an cot both looked cherry ripe this week. If he is indeed targeting later in the season expect the likes of opera singer to blossom.
 
Aidan thought the horse could walk on water and just made a balls up in prep for the guineas. A high percentage of his horses have needed that first run. I can't see him not wanting to win the guineas, I suspect if COT had won the guineas he'd have been going for the leger. The horse was doing his best work a furlong past the post, Ryan couldn't pull him up. Breeders Cup Classic he's 8's and that tempts me
 
Yes, not afraid of being beaten looks a big deal, which I really admire.

My gut reaction watching the race unfold and seeing how long it took Moore to pull him up was that the COT we see next time will be 10lbs better than we saw today.

On top of that, he was fastest throughout four of the last five furlongs today, which takes a bit of doing. The other was the penultimate one when Havlin finally got AF rolling.

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Aidan thought the horse could walk on water and just made a balls up in prep for the guineas. A high percentage of his horses have needed that first run. I can't see him not wanting to win the guineas, I suspect if COT had won the guineas he'd have been going for the leger. The horse was doing his best work a furlong past the post, Ryan couldn't pull him up. Breeders Cup Classic he's 8's and that tempts me
 
In Aidan's own words:
"Diego Velazquez got upset. When horses get upset like that in the stalls, their heart rate goes through the roof and usually it goes out the window. That's they way it is."
Think this was what really happened in the Guineas.
 
Er no he didn't. Ryan was fully engaged way before when the 2nd was on the bridle. By the time he asked the question the winner took a few lengths out of him. He closed to about a length before the winner just kept going. The winner was relentless.
I actually wouldn't crib the ride too much because he was keen early. He wanted to make sure he had enough in the tank to get home.
The winner would have got him in last half furlong had he kicked earlier. Would have made it even more exciting.

Did help the winner running over a trip!


That's the way a horses energy works is it? Go early it doesn't use any up...Jury is out on this one Rab was happy the trainer was happy and simply said he was beaten by better horse.
 
I'm sure I heard Chapman talking about the Breeders Cup Classic after yesterday and Aidan didn't rule it out.

To Reet, re the stalls issue in the Guineas. I think Aidan said after yesterday it was one factor that got City Of Troy beat at Newmarket. Not the only issue.

Aiden definately said he was too fresh in the Guineas.

Or in my language, he wasn't tuned up for that race.

When a 3 year old colt has a long hard season ahead, it's understandable a trainer like O Brien left a lot to work on before Newmarket.

I think punters will factor this is in future 2000 Guineas when a hot favourite is being backed as if defeat is out of the question.

Whatever he'd done as a two year old he was too short for that race anyway.

Hopefully in years to come when I grow into an old man I get healthier odds for favs in the 2000 Guineas. So I'm not complaining.
 
No fixed plans. 'The lads' will talk about it for a while. Breeders Cup Dirt later in the season was mentioned.

I think Portland might be his Curragh horse.
 
RP analysis comment re AF:

...travelled smoothly into the race under his new rider Robert Havlin, who was perhaps just caught napping by the winner suddenly bursting through to his inside. It made no difference as he was a clear second-best on the day...
 
I miss a lot of interviews in the land of smile Has Aiden laid out future plans? Irish Derby. ?
They said the original plan was guineas, derby and then the travers. They’d still look at that but Ryan said he was immature and Aidan intimated that he’d be worried the kickback on dirt may be a bit much if that was the case.
You can see the commercial considerations in play there from both angles. A Justify that wins the derby and then wins a Group 1 on dirt at 3.
Has that been done before?
 
"I think punters will factor this is in future 2000 Guineas when a hot favourite is being backed as if defeat is out of the question."

Maybe it was because he was short enough anyway but COT's price never moved a muscle since after his last race of his two year old campaign. If he was the horse connections thought he was he would have at least been backed on the day but drifted if my memory serves me right. Which might suggest they were not entirely happy with him in the build up
 
My last word on Rab Havlin's ride.

It's simple as ABC...You have enough fuel in your car to take you exactly 3 miles. You get a rush of blood to the head and put your foot to the floor for 1 mile..........what happen? :- something like 300 yds from home you run out of petrol......The RP SL ATR RTV not one say he was caught napping. He may have expected more than the horse had in reserve but any rider will tell you that happens to anyone who's ridden a piece of work let alone in a race
 
"I think punters will factor this is in future 2000 Guineas when a hot favourite is being backed as if defeat is out of the question."

Maybe it was because he was short enough anyway but COT's price never moved a muscle since after his last race of his two year old campaign. If he was the horse connections thought he was he would have at least been backed on the day but drifted if my memory serves me right. Which might suggest they were not entirely happy with him in the build up
Don't know what you are getting at.........if they thought he wasn't right they wouldn't have run him as there was too much to lose.
I watched the betting everyday and there was zillions for the horse..........what they never told us came after the race...the horse got a lot more upset in the stalls than they let on afterwards....apparently his heart rate jumped through the roof at Newmarket and afterwards hitting 240bpm every time they tried to put him into the stalls at home...........if we had known that and they had solved the problem he'd have gone off a lot shorter.

Don't think Aiden was trying to be cute he just didn't want to embarrass himself again..so he said nothing
 
"I think punters will factor this is in future 2000 Guineas when a hot favourite is being backed as if defeat is out of the question."

Maybe it was because he was short enough anyway but COT's price never moved a muscle since after his last race of his two year old campaign. If he was the horse connections thought he was he would have at least been backed on the day but drifted if my memory serves me right. Which might suggest they were not entirely happy with him in the build up
Point taken, Nathan.

That sentence you quote maybe should have read, 'priced as if defeat is out of the question'.

As opposed to 'backed'.
 
Fist... I watched the betting everyday and priced never shifted as far as I can remember was always around the 4/6 price throughout the winter. Maybe money was bet on him in zillions but his price was frozen solid
Aidan has the favourite near enough every year and they all tend to move in the market
COT never did so what I am saying is I don't think they were as confident as they were making out.
Factoring in that Aidan's have near enough all needed the first run and the weather being worse this year possible didn't get the build up required.
 
Well I just had alook through some bets I had 20/21 and 10/11

City Of Troy was 1.9 and was matched for £6,568.93 and was cut to 1.88 on the 20th April and the next day he was backed again down to 1.8 for £20,214.28. that's only one outlet there would be 20 times that going around with weeks to go.

The reason he was returned at 4/6 is simply because of the money for other horses and the bookies balancing their books............The yard could have had 50k on the horse split between 20 bookies and it would have gone unnoticed markets funny that way
 
They said the original plan was guineas, derby and then the travers. They’d still look at that but Ryan said he was immature and Aidan intimated that he’d be worried the kickback on dirt may be a bit much if that was the case.
You can see the commercial considerations in play there from both angles. A Justify that wins the derby and then wins a Group 1 on dirt at 3.
Has that been done before?
THik it's long been the plan to go Traver's then Breeder's Cup - ,object being to give Coolkore a dirt sire.
 
My last word on Rab Havlin's ride.

It's simple as ABC...You have enough fuel in your car to take you exactly 3 miles. You get a rush of blood to the head and put your foot to the floor for 1 mile..........what happen? :- something like 300 yds from home you run out of petrol......The RP SL ATR RTV not one say he was caught napping. He may have expected more than the horse had in reserve but any rider will tell you that happens to anyone who's ridden a piece of work let alone in a race

In theory yes, but you're bending the theory a wee bit. The equivalent of what you're saying would have been for Havlin to ask AF to sprint for the first four furlongs and obviously would then have stopped to a walk. If he put the foot to the floor for the middle third he'd have been slowing down dramatically from the four pole. Watch the race again, Tanlic - I did a few times this morning - and watch where COT was when Moore started his move (*more on that shortly) when he was four or five lengths behind AF. Watch Havlin ask AF for his effort AFTER COT has taken two lengths out of him.

Theoretically, you are absolutely right. Havlin did kick at a time when you'd have wanted him to, relative to the distance of the race, but he wasn't riding against the clock. Take COT out of the equation and we'd have been hailing the ride as an excellent one. I have no issue with that.

I had no financial interest on AF but watching the race live I was thinking, "Havlin, can you not see COT flying through on the inside?" and assumed he didn't because of the other horses inside him that he knew he had stone cold.

As I said after the race, if he'd made his move half a furlong earlier and kicked for everything he'd have gone pretty much with COT for about two furlongs before the effort started to peter out. COT would have won regardless; I've never argued otherwise. But that earlier kick would have gained him ground and momentum on the downhill part of the track and would have offset to an extent the idea of 'running out of petrol'. I reckon he'd have run COT to about a length* but would have been further clear of the third than he was. That's what I've been getting at, maybe not expressing it clearly, perhaps.

The comment in red above about RH being caught napping was copied and pasted from the RP analysis in today's website article.


*
Now for the controversial bit...

I've made myself quite unpopular on here for periodically being critical of Ryan Moore and I probably don't balance it out enough by praising him when he's brilliant, as he was on Luxembourg when I was counting my money at the top of the hill seeing the 15s furlongs he was dictating.

But, for me, COT's brilliance dug him out of a self-made hole yesterday.

For as long as I can remember, I've wanted whoever rides something I've backed in the Derby or Oaks to be in the kind of position that Piggott, and then Dettori, habitually took, ie just off the pace and just off the fence, allowing for a par pace. Moore seldom gets this right but has been riding superstars so their superiority has allowed them to win regardless.

Yesterday, maybe COT couldn't go the early pace. The stablemate's fractions saw him run a final section of 100% so he didn't overdo things. Maybe Moore felt obliged to drop him back early on account of his draw. But, for me, he was a lot further back than I was happy with, and for the first six furlongs I wondered if COT was going to flop again. COT actually lost ground - Moore's fault, imo - at the top of the hill and ended up with loads to do. Then Moore switched him inside again, asked the question and the horse started to fly. He started his run a good five lengths adrift of AF and had gone two lengths in front before Havlin reacted but he had the horse todo that.

Maybe he knew all along that his race position wouldn't have mattered because the horse is so good. That's why I said earlier I reckon the next time we see COT he'll run 10lbs better. He'll probably need to get closer to that to beat his elders should he go for the King George or Arc, assuming something among the older horses has something close to 130 in its locker. Timeform has Auguste Rodin on 129 but they tend to be about 5lbs higher than ORs. If RPRs are going 125 for COT there's a chance TF will go 130 so maybe he won't need to improve any after all.

All just one person's opinion, though.
 
I think Moore rides his horses in way that they (the horses!) are most comfortable, not in a way that might be best in theory. To push a horse a little faster than is comfortable for it (which many do, so as to keep it in the “right” place) is probably not the ideal way to get the best out of that particular horse. So Moore may not have his horse in a position that he (or us) thinks is ideal, but he will mostly have it in a position that allows it to run the race overall as best as it can.
 
I think Moore rides his horses in way that they (the horses!) are most comfortable, not in a way that might be best in theory. To push a horse a little faster than is comfortable for it (which many do, so as to keep it in the “right” place) is probably not the ideal way to get the best out of that particular horse. So Moore may not have his horse in a position that he (or us) thinks is ideal, but he will mostly have it in a position that allows it to run the race overall as best as it can.

If that was the case, BJ, how do we account for him riding COT prominently in the 2000G when they were going 6-7f pace?
 
Well, if Aiden was right about him being keyed up with an excessive heart rate, then perhaps he was very keen and Moore didn’t want to waste his energy by hauling him back too much, so letting him run at his comfortable pace, albeit knowing it was probably too fast. Just a wild guess!

What I do know is that I quite often think Moore is out of position, but he is too good a jockey for that and I prefer to believe that there is good reason why he should be there.
 
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