The Road to the 2012 King George

cheers Grass

I can't add up can i?

130 on flat would be 165 over jumps..not 171+

so it does look like DO says that there is a difference..it looks like 130 should equal about 170 and then the list of those above doesn't look excessive..i would expect there are a lot of horses 165+

that is of course if the difference between the codes is 35 lbs
 
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Some have the difference at 42lbs.

Where time ratings were concerned, the old Handicap Book used to work on 9-0 for Flat and 12-0 for NH, ie 126lbs and 168lbs.

I don't imagine they were/are alone.
 
OHR

Long Run 178
Finians Rinbow 173
Riverside Theatre 170
Sprinter Sacre 169
Al Ferof 168
Silvinaco Conti 168
Alberta's Run 168
Medermit 167
Tidal Bay 166
Burton Port 166
Santuaire 166
Somersby 165
Cue Card 165
The Giant Bolster 164
Captain Chris 162
Wishful Thinking 162
Kauto Stone 162
For Non Stop 162

I might have missed some though
 
Some have the difference at 42lbs.

Where time ratings were concerned, the old Handicap Book used to work on 9-0 for Flat and 12-0 for NH, ie 126lbs and 168lbs.

I don't imagine they were/are alone.

that seems more like it really..the list that CL has put up would back that up..for instance Burton port would not equate to a 130 horse on the flat..a 124 would seem more likely
 
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The class variation at the top of NH racing can vary quite markedly compared with Flat horses.

Most accept that 126 is the benchmark for a genuine G1 winner and the superlatives start flying when anything get close to 130, more so when it goes beyond. Once every two or three years we get 130+ types.

Over the jumps, 168 is deemed up to winning Grade 1 races but every year there are dozens of horses rated 170+. Almost every year there is a 180 or more. It's only once every decade or so we get 190s, but that's still a lot more often than we get 140 types on the Flat. Maybe there's a problem with the NH scale.

Al Ferof won the PP off 159. On my figures he ran to 174. That, on the face of it, shouldn't be good enough to win an average King George or Gold Cup. On the other hand, he's young and obviously on a curve. How steep the curve is we won't know until his next run or two. If that next run is in the King George and you think he can win, you're basically betting that he is still on that curve.

I might want more evidence than that before committing in his favour.

When it comes to rating Grade 1 chasers I tend to ignore them completely and look at the horse, the course, the conditions and opposition. Take Kauto for example he could run anywhere from 191 down to 172 when beating Neptune Collonges only a neck in Denman's Gold Cup or even worse whatever rating you want to give him for beating What A Friend 156 a nose in Long Run's Gold Cup.

My worry with Al ferof is he hit's flat spots......Go back to the Supreme and watch how much ground Sprinter Sacre and the others gained when they quickened after the 3rd last. Ruby must have thought all chance had gone he was so slow to pick up.

He has done exactly the same thing over fences most notably in the Victor Chandler. Ruby was consistently niggling at him every time there was a slight injection of pace to keep him in touch. He was also losing a length or so on the turn and Ruby did well to get into a challenging position but it took so much out of him his effort was short lived.

In the Arkle he tried to match strides with Cue card and manged to get to the front when Ruby pushed him into the lead but Joe Tizzard never batted an eylid and just let him go as it was way too soon. How much him topping that fence made is hard to say but when Sprinter Sacre went Joe still never moved until a fence later and Al Ferof couldn't even keep tabs on him.

He's then gone to Aintree given a soft lead and had only gone a mile and Ruby was having little pokes at him. He even lost ground on his stable companions on the sharp turns and when the pace was stepped up he went totally flat in exactly the same way he had at Cheltenham.

You could say the distance was too short for him in the VC and the course too sharp at Aintree but in the King George they don't exactly hang about and one thing you have to do is travel or your chances are nil. You only need look back to Imperial Commander to realize making up lost ground is near impossible.

The Paddy Power was run in testing conditions with nothing in a hurry to be cracking on which was ideal for him. but this horse has serious problems when it comes to tackling top notchers on decent ground. He totally lacks the tactical speed to keep in a race traveling and his jumping is definitely suspect when he's out of his comfort zone.

There's more chance of Kauto Star making a comeback straight out of a field and winning another King George than this fellow has of winning one unless the ground turns out to be very soft or even heavy.

He was in his element at Cheltenham in a tacky bog and that's where PN should be trying to place him. If I were PN he'd miss the King George and head to straight to Ireland for the Lexus where with luck he'd get the conditions that slow down everything else to his pace.

Rated 168 178 190 it wouldn't make any difference to him I reckon he'll hate Kempton
 
I wouldn't be so sure that the best in Ireland will turn up..

Flemenstar I would have thought will stick to 2m4f max for the time being and probably go for the John Durkan as I imagine will Bog Road if he can get back on track.

First Lieutenant and Hidden Cyclone might go for the Lexus, the former being a doubtful starter at Kempton and I would have thought Al Ferof could hold his own against them.
 
I wouldn't be so sure that the best in Ireland will turn up..

Flemenstar I would have thought will stick to 2m4f max for the time being and probably go for the John Durkan.

The JD is the plan, then they start Gold cuppin with a step up to 3 in the Lexus

Peter-Casey_1038425t.jpg
 
When it comes to rating Grade 1 chasers I tend to ignore them completely and look at the horse, the course, the conditions and opposition.
At the risk of sounding patronising - not intended in any way so I apologise in advance if that's how this comes across - that's your prerogative and if it works for you, great. But the whole point of ratings is to try and get a handle on ability levels (rather than aptitudes) to allow us to arrive at a ranking order of ability. The more factors in a horse's favour, the more likely it is to perorm at the extent of its ability and the better handle we are likely to have on that ability.

When they eventually come together, either at level weights or in a handicap, that's when the other factors you mention impact upon advance analysis and should inform any betting tactics.

Diamond Harry, for example, would probably be a bargepole virgin going righthanded.
 
He ran off 158, not to 158, sunybay - and SWC was able to claim the 5lbs (as it was a handicap). No way the performance could be measured at 163 any way I look at it.
 
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I think to some on this forum...

A winner of a race is fantastic
The runner up, if even by 2 lengths and on his seasonal debut, is written off

I don't follow this.
 
I think although he had more than one big name running at Ascot , it was interesting he did not go to Haydock and this is often a significant factor with trainers. Re the film of him watching LR's defeat he had a resigned look on his face as they jumped the second last and was shown shaking his head as the horses came over the last and on the Long Run :whistle: in.
 
Right... the Gold Cup, in which he was placed, and his seasonal debut where he reversed form with the Gold Cup runner-up... Give the horse a break, why don’t you.

he was entitled to beat TGB..needs better ground

what are you on about?..give the horse a break..i thought the forum was to pass opinion on horses..or isn't it allowed anymore?

at least i back up my views..unlike you
 
Al Ferof's Paddy Power he won off 159 . Long Run was third off 151 was he not ?
I suppose that could have a little bearing on how we judge Al Ferof but I'd rather be looking at winners only.

He carried 11st 08lbs as did Our Vic, Cyford Malta and Dublin Flyer and you won't find any of them in the King George or Gold Cup roles of honour. The last 3 winners achieved very little after wasrd and only Imperial Commander proved to be up their with the very best.

My point is the race does not take a lot of winning and better horses than Al Ferof have won it and failed to make any impression on the best around. You have to go way back to Dunkirk to find what you would call a champion and he carried 12st7lbs.

I am completely not sold on Al Ferof I think he's a dog and will let his followers down badly...Sorry to his fans but that just the way I see it.
 
You must be joking have you never watched Southwell all weather? As the saying goes every dog has it's day and re AlFerof he's had his. I wouldn't trust him to improve on his first run he's doesn't travel well enough in his races for me, is often caught flat footed and I don't like the way he jumps.

Would be great to think Al Ferof is a budding Kauto Star but I'd have trusted Al Capone before I'd trust him.
 
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