Black Caviar
- Thread starter sunybay
- Start date
EC1
On a break
aye
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EC1
On a break
don't worry Steve..i'm only playing about to see how much reet stalker hard will respond
up to press he hasn't let me down
well done whoever got the place bet up..very lucky winner i thought
Colin Phillips
At the Start
Trainer thought that Black Caviar wasn't right during the race.
When she was being trotted after the race I thought that she might have been slightly lame on her off-hind.
When she was being trotted after the race I thought that she might have been slightly lame on her off-hind.
trudij
Senior Jockey
(sorry Colin) thats all her legs ive seen people speculating lameness on now... Trainer was on ATR just now - saying he's seen no indication of an injury and will not discuss her future plans at all at this stage, other than she's off home.
Best of luck to him getting her home before I kidnap her, Im already at Fleet on my way over to stuff her up my jumper (and Luke)...
Colin Phillips
At the Start
..........you fancy Luke Harvey?:blink:
Colin Phillips
At the Start
Did he come too soon?
edgt
Senior Jockey
Such are the vicissitudes (ups and downs for W.H.Carson fans) of racing. Had Society Rock in a docket with Tha'ir and Dandy Boy. Am more speechless than Fanshawe !
Some race though. Would hate to have been the guy with 100000 on at 1/5. Hope the defibrillator was nearby.
Some race though. Would hate to have been the guy with 100000 on at 1/5. Hope the defibrillator was nearby.
Watching it again, its hard to say he wouldnt have won if not left behind. Harsh to go off when they did.
the atmosphere was great and people following a horse is so good.
but Black caviars run was a huge dissapointment
the face of her trainer
the form (121), with Moonlight needing softer, ridden by an old french jockey, worse draw, Restidrigent a neck behind, Godolphin horse in the mix and Society losing his chance in the stalls.
the time slower than the Wokhingham with the winner carrying 7 pounds more.
Just can not imagine she would have won if the horses would have run in the other side and Moonlight not giving the ground she gave( mid stalled ) and finishing closer to the stand than the winner was.
she does not even have the excuse of not handling the crowd noise or going out of the stalls slowly, she broke very well.
Very likely BC was not her best but as likely for me she was not as good as most (including me) thought she was.
Feeling she is a bridle horse and barring Hay List she has been facing oposition in the level of Es Que Love if not worse.
Interesting interview on Tregonning comparing her with Dayjur and having no doubt which one was better.
but Black caviars run was a huge dissapointment
the face of her trainer
the form (121), with Moonlight needing softer, ridden by an old french jockey, worse draw, Restidrigent a neck behind, Godolphin horse in the mix and Society losing his chance in the stalls.
the time slower than the Wokhingham with the winner carrying 7 pounds more.
Just can not imagine she would have won if the horses would have run in the other side and Moonlight not giving the ground she gave( mid stalled ) and finishing closer to the stand than the winner was.
she does not even have the excuse of not handling the crowd noise or going out of the stalls slowly, she broke very well.
Very likely BC was not her best but as likely for me she was not as good as most (including me) thought she was.
Feeling she is a bridle horse and barring Hay List she has been facing oposition in the level of Es Que Love if not worse.
Interesting interview on Tregonning comparing her with Dayjur and having no doubt which one was better.
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S
SlimChance
Guest
That is interesting.
Desert Orchid
Senior Jockey
- Joined
- Aug 2, 2005
- Messages
- 24,876
But Dayjur was very fast. We seem in awe of sprinters (in this country) just becasue they win G1s, with not enough being made of what the form actually amounts to. It is rare for G1 sprinters these days to hit 126 yet Dayjur was hitting marks in the mid-130s.
But I really don't want to get into another Frankel-Brigadier argument...
She hasn't just beaten Hay list though, she's wiped the floor with him 5 times - that against a horse with sequence of 8 group wins undefeated on the occasions he didn't meet her. She's also beaten any number of other gp1 winners easily too, in a country whose sprinters are generally recognised as the best in the world.
She's won 22 out of 22 for chris'sake, 10 of them at the top level without turning a hair, so to judge her on today's race doesn't even begin to do her justice..
EC1
On a break
she has run below her best Suny..we know how good their sprinters are from years gone by..and no one over there thinks she is inferior to past ones they have sent over
just looking at the result doesn't tell the full story...she did cruise the race and the jock let her slow down when he should have been fully urging her..it seems to me the orders were to give her as easy a race as possible..which he did all through the race
IF the jockey had ridden her correctly in the last furlong she could have won further..but not to a level of the 136 of her TF rating obviously...have TF rated her a stone wrong?..i doubt it..they didn't rate other Aussie sprinters that far wrong.
you cannot stop riding a horse at a track like ascot..the momemtum doesn't carry..so he has made her look at least a couple of lengths worse than she is imo..his efforts throughout the final furlong were virtually nil even before he dropped his hands
just looking at the result doesn't tell the full story...she did cruise the race and the jock let her slow down when he should have been fully urging her..it seems to me the orders were to give her as easy a race as possible..which he did all through the race
IF the jockey had ridden her correctly in the last furlong she could have won further..but not to a level of the 136 of her TF rating obviously...have TF rated her a stone wrong?..i doubt it..they didn't rate other Aussie sprinters that far wrong.
you cannot stop riding a horse at a track like ascot..the momemtum doesn't carry..so he has made her look at least a couple of lengths worse than she is imo..his efforts throughout the final furlong were virtually nil even before he dropped his hands
EC1
On a break
if he was comparing her today to Dayjur i would say its stating the obvious..however if comparing her best efforts to Dayjur then it would have been close..particularly as he would have had to concede the allowance
Clearly, we didn't see her at her best today, for a variety of reasons, and it would be unfair to judge her on that effort, just as it would be to judge Frankel on last year's Royal Ascot performance.
The comparison between Black Caviar and Dayjur is an interesting one.
Physically, it's no contest, with the mare being a magnificent specimen of tremendous power, whereas Dayjur was rather more racing-like.
As for performance, this is where it gets more difficult! Dayjur won some of his races more brilliantly, a la Frankel, whereas Black Caviar tends to race less exuberantly, winning cosily, hand-ridden, and they like her to be ridden that way. That has probably helped to prolong her career. Dayjur managed to get himself beaten by a nonentity (Tod) as a 3-y-o (we can forgive his other defeats) but Black Caviar has been able to remain unbeaten. Also, Black Caviar has won more Group 1s than Dayjur (12-3), although it was hardly his fault that he was retired after his Belmont run.
The thing that really sways it for me is that Hay List, who she's thrashed every time she's met him, is a better sprinter than any of the horses Dayjur beat. Remember, Hay List would be hailed as one of the greats if Black Caviar hadn't been born - he's got a higher rating than Takeover Target, Choisir and Scenic Blast, who were all top-notch Group 1 horses.
So, the nod goes to Black Caviar, but both are great horses, a privilege to see them race.
The comparison between Black Caviar and Dayjur is an interesting one.
Physically, it's no contest, with the mare being a magnificent specimen of tremendous power, whereas Dayjur was rather more racing-like.
As for performance, this is where it gets more difficult! Dayjur won some of his races more brilliantly, a la Frankel, whereas Black Caviar tends to race less exuberantly, winning cosily, hand-ridden, and they like her to be ridden that way. That has probably helped to prolong her career. Dayjur managed to get himself beaten by a nonentity (Tod) as a 3-y-o (we can forgive his other defeats) but Black Caviar has been able to remain unbeaten. Also, Black Caviar has won more Group 1s than Dayjur (12-3), although it was hardly his fault that he was retired after his Belmont run.
The thing that really sways it for me is that Hay List, who she's thrashed every time she's met him, is a better sprinter than any of the horses Dayjur beat. Remember, Hay List would be hailed as one of the greats if Black Caviar hadn't been born - he's got a higher rating than Takeover Target, Choisir and Scenic Blast, who were all top-notch Group 1 horses.
So, the nod goes to Black Caviar, but both are great horses, a privilege to see them race.
Gamla Stan
At the Start
- Joined
- Aug 19, 2005
- Messages
- 4,337
A fantastic day's racing at Ascot, one of the best atmospheres I've ever experienced at the races. The passion amongst the Australians was just staggering, so many in Black Caviar ties and dresses and they showed a video link to Federation Square in Melbourne where 15,000 were sat in the middle of Winter at 1am to watch her.
The race was disappointing obviously and she sadly hasn't shown her form and a couple of Aussies I spoke to said they thing she is now finally regressing. I have no idea at all what Nolen was playing at though, at first I thought he mistook the winning post but I'm not so sure on a second viewing. It was a bizarre ride and an even weirder race. Even if you take the winner out of the race, the form is very very muddling with the proximity of the 2nd and 3rd behind as Moonlight Cloud hasn't ran to form if you use them as markers. The time was also slower than the Wokingham again. Very odd.
Either way, it was a great day and whilst I'd loved to have seen her hack up by 7 she still won despite the ground, the ride and the travelling. She still returns to Oz a champion and the best sprinter in the world by a good distance on all known form.
The race was disappointing obviously and she sadly hasn't shown her form and a couple of Aussies I spoke to said they thing she is now finally regressing. I have no idea at all what Nolen was playing at though, at first I thought he mistook the winning post but I'm not so sure on a second viewing. It was a bizarre ride and an even weirder race. Even if you take the winner out of the race, the form is very very muddling with the proximity of the 2nd and 3rd behind as Moonlight Cloud hasn't ran to form if you use them as markers. The time was also slower than the Wokingham again. Very odd.
Either way, it was a great day and whilst I'd loved to have seen her hack up by 7 she still won despite the ground, the ride and the travelling. She still returns to Oz a champion and the best sprinter in the world by a good distance on all known form.
Gamla Stan
At the Start
- Joined
- Aug 19, 2005
- Messages
- 4,337
Indeed, Hay List is Australia's Excelebration. He's a very very good Group One class sprinter and she batters him.
The time was probably slower than the Wokingham because they didn't go a great pace early (Sectionals show *all the first 3 gained speed each furlong - section 2,3,4 & 5).
Had they done so, there's little doubt Black Caviar wouldn't have lasted as well as she did.
*Edit - Make that virtually the whole field.
Had they done so, there's little doubt Black Caviar wouldn't have lasted as well as she did.
*Edit - Make that virtually the whole field.
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