Derby. Epsom (no road)

intergoal said:
I thought the Dante was an interesting race. When a horse from an unfashionable stable causes an upset like this, we often dismiss the race as below standard. I thought it was a decent Derby trial and the winner should not be dismissed lightly.

I saw Libertarian run on TV in the Classic Trial at Sandown in April, he caught my eye. He was very green and steered an erratic course early in the straight, but once he found his stride, he finished really well. One of the great things about being an old timer is that every once in while you can recall a precedent that is outside the memory of others.

I was at Sandown back in 1978, on Whitbread Gold Cup day and saw a horse called Whitstead win the Classic Trial. A son of Morston; Whitstead was trained by Captain Ryan Price, he was an easy 10 length winner on rain softened ground. Impressive though Whitstead was, my eye was caught by the runner up, outpaced around the home turn, he stayed on really well to take second close home. The name of that horse was Shirley Heights, Libertarian doesn’t resemble Shirley Heights in appearance but his style of running is very reminiscent.

If Libertarian did go on to win at Epsom he would follow both Shirley Heights and Benny The Dip, both beaten at Sandown before winning the Dante en-route to success at Epsom. At 20/1, could he be a sporting bet to give Dawn Approach a wake up call.
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Nice post Intergoal.
Welcome to the forum!
 
intergoal said:
I thought the Dante was an interesting race. When a horse from an unfashionable stable causes an upset like this, we often dismiss the race as below standard. I thought it was a decent Derby trial and the winner should not be dismissed lightly.

I saw Libertarian run on TV in the Classic Trial at Sandown in April, he caught my eye. He was very green and steered an erratic course early in the straight, but once he found his stride, he finished really well. One of the great things about being an old timer is that every once in while you can recall a precedent that is outside the memory of others.

I was at Sandown back in 1978, on Whitbread Gold Cup day and saw a horse called Whitstead win the Classic Trial. A son of Morston; Whitstead was trained by Captain Ryan Price, he was an easy 10 length winner on rain softened ground. Impressive though Whitstead was, my eye was caught by the runner up, outpaced around the home turn, he stayed on really well to take second close home. The name of that horse was Shirley Heights, Libertarian doesn’t resemble Shirley Heights in appearance but his style of running is very reminiscent.

If Libertarian did go on to win at Epsom he would follow both Shirley Heights and Benny The Dip, both beaten at Sandown before winning the Dante en-route to success at Epsom. At 20/1, could he be a sporting bet to give Dawn Approach a wake up call.
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All other considerations aside, when was the last Derby winner to be trained by a handler of E Burke's stature?
It was a poor Dante; live with it.
 
reet hard said:
All other considerations aside, when was the last Derby winner to be trained by a handler of E Burke's stature?
It was a poor Dante; live with it.
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That's a ridiculous post. Perhaps (maybe even likely that) it will prove to be a poor Dante but it won't be because of who trained the Winner.

Intergoal's post is valid.
 
the dante horse is my choice, from the same first crop as dawn approach, longer trip will bring more improvement, hold a good position through the derby and hopefully go past the other horses in the last furlong. good post intergoal, libertarian is related to Shirley heights, probably know that. goodluck
 
Sheikh said:
That's a ridiculous post. Perhaps (maybe even likely that) it will prove to be a poor Dante but it won't be because of who trained the Winner.

Intergoal's post is valid.
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3rd tier trainers very rarely win the Dante - with none going on to add the Derby.
Go figure!
 
I had a go on this Chopin when he was sold the other day. You can find his last race where he murdered the second from the German guineas by 8l, not Derby winning form but he's been bought by one of the Qatari contingent to run at Epsom, so he'll be there barring injury and I expect to be able trade out of some of my bet as there will be more defections.
 
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Reason for passing on the Dante is not the trainer (although I think reet has a bit of a point that it is pretty rare for such a trainer to even have a chance of training the well bred animal needed to win) , but the fact they finished all a bit too close together. Not interested in any points about pace or whatever but for me one or two have to be well clear of the field to look the part

Being just his third run and after a break bothers me about telescope. Experience is a plus and whilst there will be exceptions it's a tough unique race both in course and atmosphere. Not keen
 
Did anyone else see telescopes gallop at lingfield? not impressive at all, not sure who the stalemate was in second but was beaten only a few lengths on the bridle, telescope was working a lot harder to open up the gap. Can't see it winning but then it must be doing the times at home given the amount of representatives from highclere that were watching.
 
According to Sportinglife site it was Opinion in second, seemed to be travelling really well fro a 95 rated horse...

Apparently all connected were disappointed with the performance and he goes again on Saturday where they will then decide whether to put him in or not.
 
A major concern like missing one of the worlds most prestigious races do you mean?


He's a 3 year not a 2 year old and you'd expect him to be able to stand up to a racecourse gallop. He's obviously not matured as hoped. With overload of the front cannons, other more mature bone are unable to flex and distort, and an incomplete fatigue fracture may develop like saucer fractures which are very slow to heal and can take a horse out of training for about 6 months.

There's also a chance if he races on fast ground it will be reoccurring and he may have to be kept away from fast ground races.

He could be perfectly fine but it's likely he wont be working for at least 4 weeks then they have to find a race on good ground is my guess.
 
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A major concern like missing one of the worlds most prestigious races .
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Not a major concern 'for the future' like you said.Everything is potentially catastrophic but generally sore shins are not a major problem.
 
EC1 said:
the maiden won by Telescope is one hell of an amazing race for throwing winners up..another one tonight..think all bar one have now won
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tbh I never knew that any of them had won since. I never bothered to look thinking it was just one of those races where the others end up in Hamilton sellers or winning a Triumph Hurdle.

The SMS tag had obviously a lot to do with it but I was really taken by the horse

I know sore shins can be nothing Sheikh but the horse did it in a gallop not in a race and that worries me as no doubt it will worry connections. They may even be thinking he'd be best left until next year to let him strengthen up as SMS will be in no hurry.
 
Tanlic said:
I know sore shins can be nothing Sheikh but the horse did it in a gallop not in a race and that worries me as no doubt it will worry connections. They may even be thinking he'd be best left until next year to let him strengthen up as SMS will be in no hurry.
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Hopefully we get to see him in the not too distant future, looks the part.
 
There's no reason to doubt the line through Trading Leather and Van Der Neer that puts Libertarian three lengths ahead of Dawn Approach, is there?
 
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Joking apart, if you take the view that Trading Leather is better suited by 10f than 8f then the Dante form doesn't look too bad now. Van Der Neer clearly didn't give his running yesterday but it certainly didn't provide any encouragement for Dawn Approach's backers and the stamina doubts remain. Magician would be a very interesting rival for him if "the lads" go down that route. O'Brien ran Peeping Fawn in the 2007 Oaks, five days after she'd finished third in the Irish 1000. Magician would have a whole seven days' recovery time.
 
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I agree , the Dante form looks better now. I still think Ballydoyle have the winner and Ruler of the World is my pick but I hope Magician doesn't turn up.
 
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