Netanyahu's victims
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icebreaker
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He doesn't answer legitimate questions ! Thought that had been demonstrably proven in the course of this thread. Instead, he avoids by befuddling and clouding the issue at hand with irrelevancy. .
Usually calls for lockdown and suppression come from those who realise the truth -- but do not want it to be revealed or discussed.
I am confident that the impartial and reasonably-minded moderators on here refuse this request to censor open and free discussion.
Grasshopper
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This call for a lockdown has nothing to do with dodging any questions, and everything to do with the debate having deriorated to the point where it's beyond parody......as I predicted it would, having been involved in similar, ultimately-pointless, exhanges with Clivex over the years, on the same subject matter.
Only this time he has a wing-man.
PS. Your only acceptable answer to a question, appears to be one which you agree with, hence why I have given-up directly participating on the thread. Your position, and clivex's too, is well established i.e. that you think Israel's reponse is legitimate and proportionate, and that Hamas is solely to blame for the current crisis. There is nothing further to add.
Only this time he has a wing-man.
PS. Your only acceptable answer to a question, appears to be one which you agree with, hence why I have given-up directly participating on the thread. Your position, and clivex's too, is well established i.e. that you think Israel's reponse is legitimate and proportionate, and that Hamas is solely to blame for the current crisis. There is nothing further to add.
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So its your role not to participate but to step in and ask for it to be "locked down" for no other reason that you don't agree. or should we say struggle? As we have seen?
And no comment on demonstrably and proven false statements on this thread, which wasted peoples time.
That is "beyond parody"
And just one more time .... (this is incredible)
Absolutely.
Whatever your so called "root causes" amount to they do not justify constant firing of rockets. Any moron can see that ultimately that is counter productive in long and short term. "root causes" will NOT be addressed under those circumstances. And is it really so fcking difficult to understand that there would NOT be an israeli attack if the rockets were not being fired? And that no state ANYWHERE will, would or should tolerate such missile attacks ad infinitum ?
And no comment on demonstrably and proven false statements on this thread, which wasted peoples time.
That is "beyond parody"
And just one more time .... (this is incredible)
Absolutely.
Whatever your so called "root causes" amount to they do not justify constant firing of rockets. Any moron can see that ultimately that is counter productive in long and short term. "root causes" will NOT be addressed under those circumstances. And is it really so fcking difficult to understand that there would NOT be an israeli attack if the rockets were not being fired? And that no state ANYWHERE will, would or should tolerate such missile attacks ad infinitum ?
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Grasshopper
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This is probably the first time I've suggested a thread should be locked - and the reasons for doing so are all too obvious in your last post.
You're wholly incapable of keeping a civil tongue in your head.
You're wholly incapable of keeping a civil tongue in your head.
Frankly you are pissing me off
Every point made by myself and icebreaker has been made in a firm but non personal manner.
Understandable frustration last post because it is so obvious but this has nothing to do with the way the posts have been made and everything to do with the fact that it is not the expected concensus
Every point made by myself and icebreaker has been made in a firm but non personal manner.
Understandable frustration last post because it is so obvious but this has nothing to do with the way the posts have been made and everything to do with the fact that it is not the expected concensus
Grasshopper
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Suggest you go back and review the tone of some of your posts on this thread.
PS. You cop a silver-medal in the "Pissed Off" sweeptakes. I secured the gold about 6 pages back.
PS. You cop a silver-medal in the "Pissed Off" sweeptakes. I secured the gold about 6 pages back.
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I'm as frustrated as Grassy. Responses like this make what's being said unworthy of response. The original post that prompted this was reported fact from the UN and pretty much any normal media outlet. Icebreaker's style of response is to make his own version of events fit his argument so what's the point in debating. The FACTS are, Israel has bombed the Gaza power supply, and in a happy coincidence accuses Hammas of bombing part of the supply fed from Israel! As such there is now limited supply coming from Israel, none generated in Gaza, and a small amount coming from Egypt. In all Gaza has less than 50% of the basic electricity supply needed. Anyone care to suggest what that would do to London. And London isn't suffering from a blockade or being reigned down on by missiles. Grassy has already answered the nonsense regarding the water supply so I won't repeat. And as for communities starving, that response is embarrassing at best. Icebreaker, go for it, say what you want in response, make it out to be true without providing the hard facts in the hope people are too lazy not to check. I'm not and I'm ready to pick apart every response you make, since you saw fit to denigrate mine with crap when I simply reported facts.
Clive's, so far your basis of engagement is to simply demand agreement and to deflect if you're put on the spot You also ignore responses or parts of responses that suit. And whenever you're presented with facts you can't answer you simply resort to accusing the poster of being anti-Semitic. Clive get back to talking cricket where I'm happy to engage and you have something worth listening to. But here you just haven't. It's worth having a read back through what you've written on here to give yourself some perspective. You shouldn't let anger and a disproportionate sense of having to win an argument let you come across as someone who just wants to vent. Pick out the responses you made when the red-mist descended and you'll see what I mean. Whatever you believe, and whether your right or wrong, and whether what your saying is worthwhile, your approach to debate here makes you come across as wrong anyway which makes debate pretty pointless! Your points also aren't aided by Icebreaker chiming in with drivel and he's making it much harder for you to make your points.
Anyway now to my real reason for responding. Anyone with half a brain can see the disproportion of Israel's military campaign. And anyone with half a brain can see that a solution to 50 years or more of history is highly unlikely to be suggested on here. Blame Israel. Blame Palestine. Whatever. Isn't that what they've been doing with each other for as long as I can remember, and just like this thread, it's gone round in circles, absolutely nowhere, and now back to where it started!
Perhaps if either of you had lived in a war torn province, where your family and friends had been killed and your whole community had been devastated you wouldn't continue to spout this nonsense. And as you can't I can only assume the images on your TV screens and IPads aren't as horrific as the ones I'm seeing. I can only assume you think close to 2000 Palestinians people being killed, including a large percentage of women and children is acceptable. and I can only assume if it was your family and friends you would still be making the same nonsensical arguments. Do you not think that those normal people who have lost those closest to them won't be the next to pick up arms, and then so it goes on for the next 50 years. The normal Palestinian or Israeli doesn't want war and conflict, they want the same normal lives you have. Yes the multiple deaths are creating the next haters and war mongers, and so it goes on.
And while I'm at it stop demanding that Grassy gives you the solution. He doesn't have it, and neither has anyone else since 1967. But given your demands to hear his solution spell yours out in detail?
Oh hang on, you already have. Hammas stop firing your pea-shooter.
Genius!
icebreaker
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And that is the problem, right there.
You have not reported facts, but, have posted falsehoods.
In your post #92 of this thread, you stated categorically that there was "no electricity" in Gaza. And this was before the recent bombing of the Gaza power station. Now you state that Gaza has ~ 50% of the basic electricity supply needed.
Your statement in that same post that "whole communities are starving" was also fanciful and unfounded. I called you on those claims -- simple as that. I also disputed your assertion that Israel controls the water in Gaza by pointing out that water supply and infrastructure is the mandate of the Palestinian Water Authority which is under the direction of Hamas.
I haven't forged any facts on here. Any statements of mine can be easily verified, and will stand up to scrutiny. On the other hand, I have read quite a few postings from deligitimisers of Israel which were riddled with untruths and distortions, and which demand challenge. Yours was one of those.
This is so unfair. Why do you label me as so callous and heartless to the deaths of so many human beings, without knowing me?
Without wanting to wear my heart on my sleeve, I can only honestly say that I am deeply upset by so many unnecessary innocent casualties in the current conflict, and hope that you will accept that as an authentic and genuine reflection of my feelings. War is a bitch, and like any sane person I hate all war for the suffering it brings on ordinary people.
But playing the numbers game as regards casualty figures of children to score political or debating points is not my bag. If it were, I would point out that there were 1.6 million Jewish children living in Nazi-occupied countries at the outbreak of WW2. At war's end, 1.5 million of them had died by gassing, starvation or shooting.
icebreaker, your answer to the above question was this:
I have to say I found it a chilling response.
icebreaker
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You asked me a question, Grey, and I tried to answer it truthfully and without fudging.
You will grant me that I attempted to address the issue of "proportionate" elswhere in the thread?
You will grant me that I attempted to address the issue of "proportionate" elswhere in the thread?
I'm no into whatabout arguments but there were how many children killed in sudan and Sri Lanka in recent times? Syria? Many many many thousands more.
Now everyone has a right to be upset about each and every tragedy but surprise surprise... It's Israel that gets certain types worked up. Only Israel. Wonder why
Actually. I don't wonder why
And before any twit comes back with...we back them... Sri Lanka is in many ways closer to the uk and part of the commonwealth
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Clive, you don't get leaders coming out fawning over Sri Lanka every 2 minutes. Boris Johnson yesterday. Valls is hated here by some (laicite is taken very seriously). Israel get more criticism than others as they are unconditionally supported by our western governments, often to strong degrees. Why do leaders feel the need to profess their support for Israel at all times?
You seem to think we (GH, Maruco, Grey, I, others) wouldn't, if given the chance by, for example, you starting a topic on them, renounce in the strongest possible ways the examples you listed. We would. So start those topics and let's discuss them there.
It's very odd how every time you are faced with a difficulty in a debate, you either call the person a lefty/anti-semite, refuse to answer by asking why we are not talking about other issues or believe one 'journalist' (link?) that supposedly thinks differently to everyone else with regard to who bombed the UN schools and hospitals. Why not debate the actual point.
At least you come off very well compared to Icebreaker, who has expressed thoughts, ideas and 'facts' that are worrying.
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I'm as frustrated as Grassy. Responses like this make what's being said unworthy of response. The original post that prompted this was reported fact from the UN and pretty much any normal media outlet. Icebreaker's style of response is to make his own version of events fit his argument so what's the point in debating. The FACTS are, Israel has bombed the Gaza power supply, and in a happy coincidence accuses Hammas of bombing part of the supply fed from Israel! As such there is now limited supply coming from Israel, none generated in Gaza, and a small amount coming from Egypt. In all Gaza has less than 50% of the basic electricity supply needed. Anyone care to suggest what that would do to London. And London isn't suffering from a blockade or being reigned down on by missiles. Grassy has already answered the nonsense regarding the water supply so I won't repeat. And as for communities starving, that response is embarrassing at best. Icebreaker, go for it, say what you want in response, make it out to be true without providing the hard facts in the hope people are too lazy not to check. I'm not and I'm ready to pick apart every response you make, since you saw fit to denigrate mine with crap when I simply reported facts.
Clive's, so far your basis of engagement is to simply demand agreement and to deflect if you're put on the spot You also ignore responses or parts of responses that suit. And whenever you're presented with facts you can't answer you simply resort to accusing the poster of being anti-Semitic. Clive get back to talking cricket where I'm happy to engage and you have something worth listening to. But here you just haven't. It's worth having a read back through what you've written on here to give yourself some perspective. You shouldn't let anger and a disproportionate sense of having to win an argument let you come across as someone who just wants to vent. Pick out the responses you made when the red-mist descended and you'll see what I mean. Whatever you believe, and whether your right or wrong, and whether what your saying is worthwhile, your approach to debate here makes you come across as wrong anyway which makes debate pretty pointless! Your points also aren't aided by Icebreaker chiming in with drivel and he's making it much harder for you to make your points.
Anyway now to my real reason for responding. Anyone with half a brain can see the disproportion of Israel's military campaign. And anyone with half a brain can see that a solution to 50 years or more of history is highly unlikely to be suggested on here. Blame Israel. Blame Palestine. Whatever. Isn't that what they've been doing with each other for as long as I can remember, and just like this thread, it's gone round in circles, absolutely nowhere, and now back to where it started!
Perhaps if either of you had lived in a war torn province, where your family and friends had been killed and your whole community had been devastated you wouldn't continue to spout this nonsense. And as you can't I can only assume the images on your TV screens and IPads aren't as horrific as the ones I'm seeing. I can only assume you think close to 2000 Palestinians people being killed, including a large percentage of women and children is acceptable. and I can only assume if it was your family and friends you would still be making the same nonsensical arguments. Do you not think that those normal people who have lost those closest to them won't be the next to pick up arms, and then so it goes on for the next 50 years. The normal Palestinian or Israeli doesn't want war and conflict, they want the same normal lives you have. Yes the multiple deaths are creating the next haters and war mongers, and so it goes on.
And while I'm at it stop demanding that Grassy gives you the solution. He doesn't have it, and neither has anyone else since 1967. But given your demands to hear his solution spell yours out in detail?
Oh hang on, you already have. Hammas stop firing your pea-shooter.
Genius!
Great post, Maruco.
Mauroc
Frankly I find your post ridulous. I find it somewhat sinister that you consider 13000 missiles with the clear intention to use more and more deadly as a "pea shooter"
You talk about what its like to live in a war torn zone? Well presumably you think that living under that constant attack with the threat of more to come is acceptable? Perhaps you should try imagining that before posting such drivel?
And would you sit there an expect your leaders to not respond in ant way? Would you fck
Frankly I find your post ridulous. I find it somewhat sinister that you consider 13000 missiles with the clear intention to use more and more deadly as a "pea shooter"
You talk about what its like to live in a war torn zone? Well presumably you think that living under that constant attack with the threat of more to come is acceptable? Perhaps you should try imagining that before posting such drivel?
And would you sit there an expect your leaders to not respond in ant way? Would you fck
Can you not think it may just be anti-zionist? And would you have less of a problem with this?
I have answered every point
the link is easy to find
Much of the lefts fawning over islamists is disgusting of course and certainly a factor
they have a blockade because they want more and bigger weapons. Thats whar they voted for. They also voted against further elections
they would not be where they are if thet had accepted oslo or not voted for a bigoted nazi worshipping party
Clive, you are doing it again!
Who here is fawning over Islamists? Why do you have to invent something which is not happening on this thread - there is no left, no fawning, but making simple points. Why the need to categorise them, dismiss them, yet never even address them.
Icebreaker. I'm not entirely sure why I'm even engaging after that response but nevertheless. Do you have any idea what less than 50% of basic electricity supply means in real terms? It means entire communities without electricity. It also means the main populous without electricity at key times otherwise key infrastructure would grind to a halt. Do you have even the remotest idea what that's like. Now add in severe food shortages in areas that have been subjected to missile strikes and entire families wiped out. Thank heavens I suppose, at least you've said you'd fall short of nuking them as well!
Incidentally, as you refer to my original post, I'll point out that you have chosen to ignore a significant amount of its content and used some loose words to jump on. I've clarified those, so perhaps you'll do me the courtesy of addressing all the other points I made.
And to answer your last point about labelling you callous and heartless without knowing you. I'm not. Your posts are doing that. And if you don't realise that's the case get someone independent to read them and give you there opinion! You say you're not, and I don't know you, so fair enough I give you the benefit of the doubt, but if your posts continue in the same vain what am I supposed to assume.
Your quote:
"But playing the numbers game as regards casualty figures of children to score political or debating points is not my bag. If it were, I would point out that there were 1.6 million Jewish children living in Nazi-occupied countries at the outbreak of WW2. At war's end, 1.5 million of them had died by gassing, starvation or shooting."
Clearly you have used this as point scoring otherwise you wouldn't have written it. And perhaps you'd like to explain why you want to bring this into this debate. I thought this debate was about what's happening in Gaza, not the holocaust, the worst atrocity in living memory, and you do so to make a really cheap point. What do you seriously expect I and others to think of you? Time to do some soul searching my friend.
Stick to the debate, and answer the questions posed in a normal rational way and then you may be able to get your points across and retain your credibility, which right now you're genuinely struggling to do.
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After reading this response and yet again not answering the question posed you're clearly only doing this for sport.
Sinister! Seriously! If I really need to explain how useless the Hammas missiles are against the Israeli defence system then you're not who I thought you were. However I'm certain you do, and I couldn't even put your response in the nice try basket because it's little more than pathetic. I expected better.
I'd also try reading the second line of your own post back, and ask yourself why you don't apply that same logic to Palestine. Do you actually think before you write or does your entrenched position make you completely blind. And do you also deliberately choose to ignore that the Israeli military are taking Palestinian land and resettling it by force.
And no I don't think any of this is acceptable from either side. But perhaps you'd like to go back to Post 92 that Icebreaker referenced earlier, and rather than ignore the central points try answering them. And also accept the challenge of offering YOUR solution to this conflict that you were aggressively pursuing Grassy for. Alternatively maybe you could call people some names, bait them, and use all the other deflection tactics you've been using when the question is either too hard or means writing more than two or three lines.
It's pretty hard to 'debate' when you come across as not actually understanding this conflict Clive. Do you actually understand it historically, politically, socially, religiously, culturally, geographically, morally, etc??? And if so, do you understand it from both sides? Because if you do please show at least some sign you do.
I suspect the truth is more like you just enjoy a good old dust up on here.
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