Where's the Festival Value?

If Hurricane Fly is not an extraordinary champion you might still enjoy racing as a punter but no more than that.

Not at all. It's about the evidence. HF was a champion and a deserving one over a number of seasons and deserves that level of recognition. But you can only beat what is around you. He often beat good but short-of-championship horses but seldom hard held the way Istabraq would.

In the pantheon of champions he's up there with the good ones and rightly so but there have been better than him who would have beaten a similar level of opponent just as readily had they been campaigned accordingly.

HF was a solid 174 champion. Istabraq more than once looked a 180+ animal.
 
How miserable. Any horse that goes to Cheltenham and wins a Champion Hurdle should be enjoyed.
 
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You can pick at, stretch and tear any line of form if you want to. However it is a depressing way of going on, completely pointless. If Peddlers Cross is not accepted as a good horse on the day he ran to his best and came 2nd in a Champion Hurdle we can all give up. If Hurricane Fly is not an extraordinary champion you might still enjoy racing as a punter but no more than that.

When did I said HF wasn't an extraordinary champion? I only disagreed for the reasons he should be viewed as that. I thought it was depressing the way you went about with that list. As for PC, I didn't said he wasn't a good horse, I said he wasn't high class once he went against older horses - I gave examples of what he did prior to CH beating an 140 rated hurdler by 11 and respectively 13 lengths- which is good but thats some way below top level and doesn't take much beating.
 
Also, let's not forget that some people believe Best Mate is as good as Arkle because he won three Gold Cups.

Winning three Gold Cups took some doing and only a top class horse could do it but I reckon off the top of my head I could name a dozen chasers that were better than Best Mate. One or two of them might not even have won a Gold Cup.
 
I'm reminded of those miserable gits of judges on those programmes like Great British Menu who never seem to enjoy food.
 
Also, let's not forget that some people believe Best Mate is as good as Arkle because he won three Gold Cups.

Winning three Gold Cups took some doing and only a top class horse could do it but I reckon off the top of my head

Some believe Arkle was a 212 horse :whistle:
 
I'm reminded of those miserable gits of judges on those programmes like Great British Menu who never seem to enjoy food.

Or like when someone cooks a very good goose and calls it the best he's eaten without explaining the recipe so that the judges can inspect if it was respected. If I'm the judge I'll still enjoy the goose(!!!) but I won't start calling it the best. The miserable might be those that proclaim something thats hard to prove and don't get an unanimous consensus of their view.
 
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By the sound of it Gold Cups and Champion Hurdles are scarcely worth winning and certainly don't prove you're a good horse.

What a pointless approach.
 
there are levels and levels, this season with Petit and Yanworth beating 150 rated hurdlers by 10-15 lengths it'll take a top class performance to beat them if they show their best in the CH. Last year it didn't took much beating as P&C wasn't the one that some expected, NC is a high class hurdler but had to give 7lbs away, MTOY came after a long absence, and so on. I'm on your side that people seem to downgrade every championship race lately and thats wrong because they always take a good one to win. Whether that `good one` is part of the elite or not can only be judged after at least 2 seasons.
 
By any definition the Fly belongs in the elite and so does Best Mate, who like Don Cossack was one of the most handsome horses I ever saw. It's not all about the ratings.
 
Very true grey.

I find it hard to fathom anyone who questions his place in the upper echelon of top hurdlers.

Longevity alone should assure his place, before anyone even considers his record of Grade 1 wins.
 
My apologies, re Jezki, got that wrong.

But I make no apology for counting all Grade 1s as an indicator of a certain level of class. The point of the list is to demonstrate as clear as clear than be that he beat the best around year after year.

Your comment about Jezki being the only top class two miler is wrong. He beat four other Champion Hurdle winners in his career. Five in all.

The Pedddlers Cross remark is absurd, he certainly produced a performance of note when runner up to the Fly in an epic Champion Hurdle. Unfortunately the effort broke him.

As for ratings, this thread gives the clearest indication yet of their limitations. When a horse wins 20 Grade 1s and beats the best around repeatedly its rating is irrelevant.

Your list is a joke...you have horses in there who were never in contention finishing a hurdle behind him. That's like telling us Vic Ventura beat Kauto Star and not mentioning Kauto was pulled up.

eg Khyber Kim was totally out of form went odd at 50/1 and was beaten 32 lengths........Your list is full of also rans which doesn't mean ****.

No way on this planet did Jezki finish 2nd to Hurricane Fly 6 times........what are you on man? He was 2nd to him 3 times. He may have finished behind him on other occasions.

You obviously have no idea what you are talking about Re Peddlers Cross. He was a 162 horse going into the Champion Hurdle and that is what Hurricane Fly beat. Oscar Whisky a 2m4f specialist ran only once at 2 miles again 1/16 in a NHF race.........PC was given a 170 for being 2nd in the CH but never ran to it and went chasing.

As far as the effort behind Hurricane Fly breaking him goes that is complete nonsense.....in fact it is utter garbage McCain came up with as an excuse for a bad decision he made that finished the horse.

Peddlers Cross looked like he had found his true vocation in life the first time he jumped a fence. He hammered Nicky Henderson Minella Class who next time out was about to take the scalp of Cue Card and For Non Stop when he took a heavy fall which more or less ended his career. MC was actually made fav for the Pendil but was PU distressed.

The point is Peddlers Cross has won 2 chases in 3 weeks and was so impressive they made him odds on to beat Sprinter Sacre. This is the horse McCain said was never the same after the CH.

Peddlers Cross made a complete hash of the first fence twisting his back and was never travelling after that.

That back injury kept him off the course and McCain desperate to please the owner decided to run him in the Jewson claiming he was 100% and back to his best........He was made fav barely raised a gallop in the race and finished stone last.

That injury rumour has it and running him in the Jewson is what ended his career the rest is just a BS excuse to hide the truth.

That aside DO in a way is correct. Many of Hurricane Fly's races were set up for him and were preps for his stable companions who would go there needing the race.

Some of the races were so bad because Mullins would enter an army and nothing would turn up. He was odds on 15 times if my counting is correct and about 8 of those Mullins had the 2nd or 3rd in.

Obviously those races were easy picking for the Fly but that's part of racing.

Your list however is garbage. When we talk about Arkle beating Height O' Fashion who the hell mentions the horse that finished 4th or 5th who was never in contention? Nobody in their right mind does.

If the handicapper had done Arkle would have been rated 350. Hurricane Fly (172) beat Binocular (167) 27 3/4 lengths in one race so let's count that and give the Fly a 190+ shall we?

Hurricane Fly's best performance IMO were in Ireland in the Hatton Grace when he beat Solwhit and Voler La Vedette and in the Solwhit in the ICH when he beat Solwhit a neck....BTW Dunguib was fav for that race and was beaten over15 lengths.Dunguib ran like a cow and beat himself it had bog all to do with Hurricane Fly. He won 2 nothing races after that so claiming brownie points for that is a nonsense like 70% of your list
Beating Peddlers Cross was what it was and then he had 10 bum a month races on the trot including winning what turned out to be a moderate by comparison CH. Some masterful placing and training by Willie Mullins it must be said because what he was beating was like a who's who of who are they.

To be fair to Hurricane fly when he was asked to perform at a higher level he did so when beating Our Conor and Jezki who for me were different gravy to the likes of Peddlers Cross. I would add Arctic Fire but he looked like Thousand Stars did.in training for something else but in his case the Champion Hurdle

None of this is knocking the horse it's the truth but despite winning more grade 1's than any other horse he is not in the Timeform top 20 because so many of them were non events and his CH performances you could only say were above average nd never had that Wow factor............like Binocular's :whistle::lol:
 
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By the sound of it Gold Cups and Champion Hurdles are scarcely worth winning and certainly don't prove you're a good horse.

What a pointless approach.

Again, that's not what I'm saying.

It's one thing enjoying the sport and the individual champions for what they are and for their performances on the day and for lauding them accordingly.

But maybe someone like me is coming at it all from a different perspective. I can thoroughly enjoy the racing but if my analyses tell me the form has holes in it I'd be doing myself a disservice (and risk making wrong decisions) if I didn't take them into account.

I could keep them to myself and even allow the fact that certain races have been won in a certain style but this is a forum and I'm merely trying to suggest that I can see a different conclusion based on the evidence before us.

It doesn't stop me enjoying the races and I see it as anything but pointless.

I do appreciate your editing the earlier post, by the way.
 
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Tanlic, DO said Hurricane Fly spent his time beating a bunch of no hopers. I produce a list of 37 horses he beat which won Grade 1s. The list includes 5 (five) Champion Hurdle winners.

It is what it is, a list of horses which finished behind him which had won, and/or went on to win Grade 1 races. The length of the list and the number of races won by these horses shows that what he beat was the best that was around at the time. And he did it repeatedly.
 
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Again, that's not what I'm saying.

It's one thing enjoying the sport and the individual champions for what they are and for their performances on the day and for lauding them accordingly.

But maybe someone like me is coming at it all from a different perspective. I can thoroughly enjoy the racing but if my analyses tell me the form has holes in it I'd be doing myself a disservice (and risk making wrong decisions) if I didn't take them into account.

I could keep them to myself and even allow the fact that certain races have been won in a certain style but this is a forum and I'm merely trying to suggest that I can see a different conclusion based on the evidence before us.

It doesn't stop me enjoying the races and I see it as anything but pointless.

I do appreciate your editing the earlier post, by the way.

Surely your analysis should tell you Hurricane Fly did not just beat no-hopers though.
 
The way I look at it is I can remember Salmon Spray beating Flyingbolt, Bula beating Persian War, Comedy of Errors beating Bula, Lanzarote beating Comedy of Errors, Comedy of Errors beating Lanzarote, Monksfield Beating Sea Pigeon, Sea Pigeon beating Monksfield without looking.........but you ask someone in 20 years what did Hurricane Fly beat in the Champion Hurdle they won't have a clue
 
My greatest memory of Hurricane Fly is of him being led away from Winners' Enclosure after his last Morgiana Hurdle win.
Standing beside Edward Harty we watched the horse pass by us, Edward passed some compliment or other and I remarked how plenty of folk still dissed the horse's achievements. Edward shook his head slowly and replied "God; they haven't a clue! "
You are lucky to get one stand-out season with any horse; blessed to get two; HF gave us 5 or 6 ; and missed one in the middle for good measure.
 
You are lucky to get one stand-out season with any horse; blessed to get two; HF gave us 5 or 6 ; and missed one in the middle for good measure.

Yes indeed.

And we were lucky to have Cirrus Des Aigles for several seasons at the top level on the Flat.

But is anybody seriously going to argue that he was as good as Sea The Stars?

And is anybody seriously going to argue that Sea The Stars was as good as Mill Reef or Brigadier Gerard?

And is anybody seriously going to argue that they were better than Sea Bird?

And then there was Frankel...

Perspective guys, perspective.
 
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