QM Champion Chase betting

EC1 said:
I'm not having a go here Tanlic..because i enjoyed your post re the Dunkirk/Arkle.

but not long ago i was criticised for getting annoyed with people after i spent a lot of time putting stuff up..told i was too precious...but look at how you have responded to the above dismissive posts against your input

like i say..I'm not criticising your response....but you have proven my point that it is quite annoying when you spend time putting stuff up and someone..usually those that have little to offer the forum ...post up a one line belittle..not saying that the two respondees above are in that category..then again..maybe Clive:lol:

its not just me that gets p1ssed off with such responses you see:)..worth bearing in mind eh?

anyway..back to black & white land for a minute....you keep saying Mill House was past his best in many runs against Arkle...but didn't Mill House win the 1967 Whitbread under top weight??

his decline years were more 68/69 when they kept running him in races they shouldn't have

I think its a bit convenient to just wipe out the times Arkle absolutely slammed him at levels and giving him weight...as MH not being the same horse..how good do you have be to win a Whitbread off top weight?..i would imagine any horse doing that would find it unlikely any pundit would think it the sign of a declining horse
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They never come back LOL

Mate Mill House won nothing of note between 1963 and that WGC.he did win 3 Gainsbourgh chases but if memory serves me well he beat rags.........Ferry Boat was one horse he beat in one and the other 2 horses in the race were old hunters in their twighlight years...........the race was a joke.

I actually remember that Whitbread and the roar that went up in the betting shop when he won it.....think he was about 9/2 and it was great to see him bounce back but the fact is the Mill House of 63 would have been odds on to beat Kapeno and co..........I think What A Myth and rOndetto ran in the race but were never a factor.

I'm not knocking Arkle just pointing out facts historians who sell legends miss out because they don't make for such good reading
 
Tanlic said:
They never come back LOL
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but he didn't come back to his best according to the rest of the post:)

maybe he never lost his best..just had his heart broke watching Arkle's arse at ever increasing distances:)

i've read a couple of books on Arkle through the years..seen the videos..i wasn't remotely interested in racing at that time so can't comment any more than what is there to read watchetc.

I think he was that good that people since try to pull holes in it..due to the unbelievable thumpings he gave good horses.

I think he was all that and more..in a similar way we have seen recently with SS and his drubbings of known markers..and on the flat with Frankel..winning at Royal Ascot and making the race look like a 2 mile hurdle at Ludlow with the distance he put between himself and the field.

even with such as Frankel and SS..you always get people who will try and crab it..not believe what they are seeing..thats what has happened with Arkle through the years...particularly with the internet age

i actually think there is a % of punters who will never accept any great performance..there has to be a negative reason why a horse looks so special.
 
When horses starting long odds on draw crowds to the racecourse for what otherwise would be described as "boring, one sided races , no chance to have a bet etc" they must be very special. That was the case for Arkle, Frankel, Bregadier Gerard, Dessie and a host of other very special horses.
John Starkey has put up an essay of Flyingbolt on his " Horse Racing Photo's National Hunt" Group page. Absolutely fascinating reading.
This a horse that did not feature in Racing Post top 100 NH horses poll.
 
EC1 said:
but he didn't come back to his best according to the rest of the post:)

maybe he never lost his best..just had his heart broke watching Arkle's arse at ever increasing distances:)

i've read a couple of books on Arkle through the years..seen the videos..i wasn't remotely interested in racing at that time so can't comment any more than what is there to read watchetc.

I think he was that good that people since try to pull holes in it..due to the unbelievable thumpings he gave good horses.

I think he was all that and more..in a similar way we have seen recently with SS and his drubbings of known markers..and on the flat with Frankel..winning at Royal Ascot and making the race look like a 2 mile hurdle at Ludlow with the distance he put between himself and the field.

even with such as Frankel and SS..you always get people who will try and crab it..not believe what they are seeing..thats what has happened with Arkle through the years...particularly with the internet age

i actually think there is a % of punters who will never accept any great performance..there has to be a negative reason why a horse looks so special.
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I agree but I would never question how good Arkle was without him I would never have become hooked on NH racing. Hell I sued to end him Xmas cards when I was a kid addressed Arkle Ireland which was all you had to do to be assured it would arrive.

What I would question is how they got to the 212 and how easy it it was for this amazing once in a lifetime's horse's magical number to be challenged by another horse namely Flyingbolt.

I can only conclude that the horses Arkle and Flyingbolt were beating weren't really all that good and that there is much stiffer competition around these days.

It's not a question of whether Kauto Star or Denman would have beaten Arkle I doubt if they could have of levels.

It's more a question of would Kauto Star have beaten these horses Arkle and Flyingbolt were beating giving the the same weight and for me they most certainly would have and then some.

Evertime my cash would be on Arkle at levels but in a King George round Kempton getting 7lbs I'd be backing Kauto Star all day long.

7lbs is a massive amount between 2 top class horses as I learned to my cost when I backed Magic Court the reigning champion hurdler, to beat Salmon Spray on those terms.
 
edgt said:
When horses starting long odds on draw crowds to the racecourse for what otherwise would be described as "boring, one sided races , no chance to have a bet etc" they must be very special. That was the case for Arkle, Frankel, Bregadier Gerard, Dessie and a host of other very special horses.
John Starkey has put up an essay of Flyingbolt on his " Horse Racing Photo's National Hunt" Group page. Absolutely fascinating reading.
This a horse that did not feature in Racing Post top 100 NH horses poll.
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staggering he wasn't it that poll...staggering

yes i tend to agree that greatness can be measured by how many people will flock to see an event just because of a participant.
 
I've read that article a few times and it's well written as far as a Walt Disney movie goes.

Arkle and Flyingbolt were most likely doing a bit of public relations and although they may have often went out in the same lot no trainer works his best two horses side by side day after day unless he wants to burn their engines out completely.

Take Sprinter Sacre and Simonsig who are/were I suppose today's equivalent. Nicky Henderson wouldn't dream of them working together in fact I believe they don't even go out in the same lot and as far as I am led to believe have never worked side by side in fear of the above.

I can't see a situation either when PN would have wanted to have worked Denman with Kauto Star them being completely different types on the course and I imagine off it.

If someone knows differently I will gladly be corrected but if a horse were capable of bringing another horse up to his own level Henry would have been working everything he had with Frankel
 
The main reason you can end up with two good horses in your yard at the same time is money something Dreaper PN and NJH are never short of. They buy/bought the best of the best and ended up with the best which is hardly surprising......only need to look at Gigginstown or Coolmore to work that one out
 
EC1 said:
staggering he wasn't it that poll...staggering

yes i tend to agree that greatness can be measured by how many people will flock to see an event just because of a participant.
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Arkle and Red Rum are proof of that and in the uSA they go mad...........1000's of fans doing the Zenyatta shuffle was unreal
 
When I was a kid I had a photo cut from a newspaper of Mill House next to my bed for years. We tried to find his birthplace when we were in Ireland one year, but it escaped us [the S.O. didn't undertsnd why I was so desperate to see it]. I was well into middle age before I truly understood how great Arkle had been. If I could be granted a 'racing wish' it would be for him to have had a long and happy retirement.
 
Tanlic said:
I've read that article a few times and it's well written as far as a Walt Disney movie goes.

Arkle and Flyingbolt were most likely doing a bit of public relations and although they may have often went out in the same lot no trainer works his best two horses side by side day after day unless he wants to burn their engines out completely.

Take Sprinter Sacre and Simonsig who are/were I suppose today's equivalent. Nicky Henderson wouldn't dream of them working together in fact I believe they don't even go out in the same lot and as far as I am led to believe have never worked side by side in fear of the above.

I can't see a situation either when PN would have wanted to have worked Denman with Kauto Star them being completely different types on the course and I imagine off it.

If someone knows differently I will gladly be corrected but if a horse were capable of bringing another horse up to his own level Henry would have been working everything he had with Frankel
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It seems Denman and Kauto did work together quite often, like plenty of other good horses. Working together doesn't mean racing together, they won't be let cut each other's throats. And it certainly doesn't usually mean schooling over jumps together.

But good horses have a competitive streak and even in controlled conditions that streak can spur them to improve.

The examples I can think of mainly come from the flat, such as Rodrigo De Triano and Dr Devious, New Approach and Finsceal Beo, Dick Turpin and Canford Cliffs, Harbinger and Workforce, Olympic Glory and Toronado, Slade Power and Sole Power.
 
That run by Hidden Cyclone was better than the winning margin suggested.

He had Twinlight well and truly cooked but tired markedly in the closing stages.

He's bound to improve from that and I can see him running a big race at Cheltenham.

He most certainly should not be the 20/1 he is on Betfair with there still being nagging doubts about the first 2 in thebetting
 
He was in receipt of 8lbs and perfectly entitled to win as he did. Doesn't improve his QMCC chance one iota, imo.
 
he was getting 8lb though so was fully entitled to win..will he go up the Cheltenham hill?..seemed to really slow down there coming to the last

not keen on the horse tbh unless has stuff in his favour,,before today his last 12 runs had given yielded one win
 
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Tanlic said:
That run by Hidden Cyclone was better than the winning margin suggested.

He had Twinlight well and truly cooked but tired markedly in the closing stages.

He's bound to improve from that and I can see him running a big race at Cheltenham.

He most certainly should not be the 20/1 he is on Betfair with there still being nagging doubts about the first 2 in thebetting
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No chance imo, Far better 25/1 chances in that race :p
 
I won't do you the dishonour by looking:) anyway I did say with doubts about SS and SDG...if they were not to run then he'd have to have some sort of chance...they all would
 
Only if you have never heard of Trading.. I backed him at 20.5 and he's now 16.5 and will shorten nearer the time.

Then I'll click a little box on my bot and make somewhere between 25% and 40% profit and run.

Also backed Sail By The Sea for the Arkle...David Pipes only runner and according to him definitely runs.......got 263.08 about him for small money but what price will he be (Currently 80) if David Pipe sticks to his word and runs him.

Also did the same with TGB already took a nice profit and put it on Many Clouds and now have a free bet on a leading contender.

Another I am hoping will do something soon is Bog Warrior 510 who is now 300 but no one wants to lay at the moment but if he does turn up he'll be at most 33.

In this day and age what seems a bad price to some is a good price to others and there's more than one way to skin a cat
 
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